The psychiatrist and ethologist Boris Cyrulnik, famous for his concept of resilience and his participation in ethical debates, applies animal behavior studies to the study of the human psyche. On October 7, he participates with ecologist Elise Huchard and oceanographer François Sarano in the Loving Yourself Like Animals debate at the Le Monde Festival.
Le Monde: For three decades now, scientists have been discovering social opportunities in animals that no one knew about. What examples in this area, in your opinion, are the most striking?
Boris Barber: In the 1950s, primate scientists like Harry Harlow and Margaret Harlow were able to prove that animals also have feelings. By isolating monkeys, and then dogs, depriving them of external contacts, they revealed that these animals develop activities aimed at themselves: swaying, rotating and or even self-aggression with strong emotions. Although the results obtained in these experiments were very convincing, they could not enter our Cartesian and Christian culture at that time.
Already 10-15 years ago, neurobiology proved that mammals and even birds have consciousness. This means that they can experience pleasure and pain. They have the same zones for emotions and memory as in humans. If you prick or cut an animal, the same chemicals affect the same parts of the brain.
- Some species of animals have one partner for life. Can we say that they "love" each other in the same sense as it is said about people?
- In animals, the impetus for the manifestation of sexual orientation is smell, visual perception or sound. Even when the animal meets a partner, you can talk about affection, but not love. A person is probably also familiar with this perception, which generates strong sexual motivation. Be that as it may, love in a person is a strong feeling that is associated with internal ideas, and not smell, visual or sound perception.
- Animals also know how to cooperate, and sometimes better than people. What can animal social relationships tell us about human psychology?
- Animals allow us to learn a lot about the work of our brain, which is formed by our environment. Beginning with Harlow's experiments, it has been proven that our babies, even with excellent biological health, would not have a single chance of proper development if they were alone, and not in the presence of someone who calms and protects them.
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Young higher mammals and our children show the same behavioral, biological and neurological changes associated with loneliness. An isolated young animal does not learn the rituals of play, and a lonely child does not learn to play and speak, does not recognize anything that distinguishes a person.
- Together with other leaders, you called two years ago to form a State Secretariat for Animal Affairs. Is the growing movement against animal cruelty a turning point for our society?
- Yes, it really can be called a turning point. For a very long time we were under the influence of Descartes, who equated animals with mechanisms, since the mind was the lot of man. In the Cartesian view, animals have no inner world.
Now we know (it has been proven) that animals have not only feelings, but also consciousness. This consciousness is, of course, different from ours. Be that as it may, the animal is able to analyze present or past information and use it to solve or anticipate a problem.
In the wild, it was noted that monkeys peel leaves from a branch, carry it with them for several kilometers, carefully push it into a termite mound, wait for insects to climb on it, and then take it out to feast on termites. Animals create a tool, use stones to crack nuts, they have culinary rituals. This view of the animal as more than just a mechanism was difficult to gain a foothold in our Cartesian culture. It is too early to talk about a complete victory.
- What do you think about these changes? What do they say about our society?
- The growing attention to cruelty to animals speaks to the improvement of the morality of society. We realize that we cannot torment a living being who suffers and has a consciousness, even if it is different from ours. As soon as we have empathy for other living beings, moral prohibition does not allow us to torment them.
- Do you advocate for animal rights?
- Animals have the right to be respected as living beings. We need to give animals the right to live without human torture. Be that as it may, this first of all imposes a duty on us, humans: not to kill or torture other living beings, even if they are not like us. It is in our interests to respect the living world, both ecology and animals: if we destroy it, we will destroy ourselves.
Laetitia Van Eeckhout