Archaeologist, historian, professor, specialist in ancient Russian and Byzantine art Oleg Ulyanov told Maria Bachenina about Leonardo da Vinci, his search for the divine, romantic relationships and the riddle of the "La Gioconda".
M. B.: We have a guest who worked in the Vatican Apostolic Library in 1996 at the invitation of Pope John Paul II's confessor. Hello!
OU: Good evening!
M. B.: I said a little impudently today the topic, because we have less than 60 minutes - the life and work of Leonardo da Vinci. I’m even a little scared, because today, after preparing for this program, I have a feeling that I am a contemporary of this genius. I completely immersed myself in this amount of information. How did you come into contact with Leonardo da Vinci while in the Vatican? You had access to such things that we, mere mortals, are not even available in museums.
OU: There was no specific goal to study Leonardo's work in Rome. But when working in the Vatican archive with Greek manuscripts and in the field study of the ancient Christian catacombs, it was quite unexpectedly possible to come to the oldest image of the Mother of God, which became the basis for Leonardo's famous work "Madonna Litta", which is kept in our Hermitage. In the Vatican itself there is only one work - "Blessed Jerome".
Photo: © wikipedia.org
M. B.: And that is unfinished.
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O. U.: Not that it is unfinished, it has a very difficult fate. This is partly due to Leonardo's painting technique - the paintings began to deteriorate before they could be preserved. And contemporaries were not so inquisitive and interested in preserving the works. We know that Rublev's “Zvenigorod Savior” was found in a wood shed, and that the painting “Blessed Jerome” was also found.
M. B.: It's hard for me to understand this.
OU: It's hard for all of us to understand. Thank God that these masterpieces have survived. And just when studying the ancient Christian catacombs located at a distant distance …
M. B.: Is it not under St. Paul's Cathedral?
OU: No, these are the extra urbis catacombs, as they were called. Let me remind you that in the era of Leonardo, humanists preferred walks, there was even such an ideology of intellectual life - extra urbis. The Byzantine humanist preached that long walks and life outside the city are more useful for such contemplation, for spiritual enrichment. In the painting Blessed Jerome, Leonardo also captured this idea - Blessed Jerome sits with a stone in his hand as a symbol of a thrown life, and evil Jerome is directed to the far corner of the picture, where we see the city in perspective. Leonardo strove to correspond to the fashion of that time and also preferred such a life, and explored all the surroundings of the Vatican. Most likely, the catacombs were then included in the sphere of his interests. Now in all textbooks they write that the catacombs were opened in 1578, but experts still knowthat the first catacombs were discovered precisely under Leonardo and they entered the sphere of interests of humanists. This discovery was made by the founder of the Roman Academy Pomponius Leto, while walking he stumbled upon the catacombs of San Callisto, it was in 1475.
M. B.: You mentioned that Leonardo was in line with fashion. But in the Renaissance, symbolism was in vogue. Can you say a few words about her? After all, "the secret of Leonardo" is a phrase that has already become a cliché. Significance plays the very first role.
Photo: © REUTERS / Juan Medina
OU: This may have been partly provoked by Leonardo himself. Each of our contemporary perceives Leonardo from his bell tower, to some he is closer as an artist, to others as an inventor. He is also considered the discoverer of all technical innovations.
M. B.: I have a couple of sheets of his inventions.
OU: But let's be respectful to Leonardo himself and let the audience know what he preferred to be called. Not at all the first artist and engineer, as he was titled in the letter, which was given to him by the French king Francis I. He called himself "the inventor of works, judgments, ideas", not a painter or engineer. We must operate with the vocabulary of that time. An invention is, in fact, the discovery of a plot and its correct development. We can say that Leonardo is your colleague, he is developing the plot.
M. B.: He makes news.
OU: Yes, that's right. Leonardo believed that really the dignity and originality of every thinker lies in the fact that he independently searches and finds his own plots and develops them. Moreover, Leonardo argued that if you are good at communicating it, then you are thinking correctly.
M. B.: Many people say that this is the essence of Leonardo's genius - he not only wrote and invented impeccably and impeccably, but also tried to first comprehend the very essence of what he was doing. After all, there is such a legend that while working on the painting "The Last Supper" he was primarily interested in the flight of bumblebees and spent a lot of time on such insignificant things. You can also add perfectionism here. How is all this known? From his diaries?
OU: Of course, we can talk about Leonardo as the founder of the epistolary genre, because his written heritage is indeed vast and immense. This is about 7000 sheets, 120 notebooks, and not all of them are properly collected. Certain codes and treatises were, of course, not published according to the author's intention, his followers could imagine all this. Leonardo made unique sketches from everyday life due to his inquisitive nature. He believed that nature is our mother and we should learn from her, because there are countless images and similarities in her. Leonardo believed that the painter's way of thinking was imitated from the divine. In the modern sense, this is a matrix.
M. B.: It turns out that he likened himself to God?
OU: No, in no way. On the contrary, he believed that his creations are created in the divine image and likeness. Moreover, here again there is an encryption that is understandable for specialists. The same terms denote the body and blood of Christ in theology. The same thing happens when the painter works, it is no coincidence that his notebook indicates that the most intimate shrines are under precious veils. And when the cover is torn off, the people prostrate themselves and beg for their lost health or hope for a better life, because it is in these paintings, according to Leonardo, that the divine plan is best embodied.
M. B.: You mentioned the diaries. Many are surprised by the nature of the records made in mirror image, but the most amazing thing is that in his diary the master addressed himself only to “you”: “Order to show you”, “You must show in your composition”, “Order to do two travel bags . I wonder if psychiatrists have studied this? After all, even doctors studied his paintings.
Photo: © REUTERS / Pascal Rossignol
OU: From a medical point of view, psychiatrists have not played the best role, starting with Freud's work "Consciousness and the Unconscious" in 1906. Then the first myth appeared, associated with the unconscious attraction of Leonardo da Vinci to his sex. Therefore, I urge everyone to proceed from what Leonardo da Vinci himself preferred. Contemporaries described him as a beautifully proportioned person with pleasant features, with flowing hair …
M. B.: I can quote Vasari: "In all his appearance there was such a radiance of beauty that at the sight of him every sad soul became clear." In general, they say about Leonardo that he was handsome, beautifully built, sang and played great.
Many researchers argue that a person cannot even be a genius engineer, sculptor, artist, architect, fashion designer, inventor, mechanic, chemist, philologist, soothsayer, singer, instrumentalist and composer, even seven spans in his forehead. Anything you can cross off this list?
OU: Can you imagine how interesting he was with himself? He had the postulate that anyone who wants to be a creator should lead a lonely life in order to most clearly understand what the Creator called you to. Indeed, according to his contemporaries, everything in him corresponded to the Greek ideal - everything was beautiful in him both internally and externally.
M. B.: But where did he come from? I can't believe it, because not only was he handsome, but also genius in a huge list of things. It seems to me that this cannot be true.
O. U.: Of course, nature has so generously endowed exactly the one who was called to serve her immensely. I will note that different aspects of his life activity were forced, due to something other than what he really gravitated towards. This was what the time required, the whim of its patrons.
M. B.: Employers.
Photo: © wikipedia.org
Oh yeah. He was not at all such a free man. Take his notebooks - we're talking about a great way of thinking, but they're all interspersed with painstaking calculations of daily spending. And the trials that he had with his stepbrothers? He was illegitimate, the family had 12 children, and until the end of his life he was in litigation.
M. B.: But his father managed to legitimize it even before the adoption of the law against illegitimate children. His mother was an ordinary peasant woman, his father was a famous notary. At a young age, Leonardo was sent to study painting. The father then had two wives, the families were childless, and the last one gave birth to 9 children.
O. U.: The father had 12 children in total. Returning to your question about why Leonardo addressed himself to "you", I can say that it was precisely on the basis of Leonardo's idea that everything in a person should be beautiful. You meet on the radio with different guests, you are always interested in what is hidden behind their appearance, what this or that person is fraught with. According to Leonardo, this could be understood by the way a person looks outwardly. By these signs, you can understand how the soul controls this body. And when referring to "you" there was a conversation between the soul and the body.
M. B.: And, that is, this is not a split personality?
OU: In no case. This is his position in life, which helped him to be so generous and rich in all kinds of creativity. We are also very interested in the achievements of Russian literature - a psychological novel, internal dialogues of the same Raskolnikov. All of this goes back to the disclosure of personality that Leonardo demonstrated to us.
M. B.: Did he realize that he was demonstrating this to someone? Did he suspect that his diaries would be read?
OU: Of course, he did not plan such haphazard publications, but he kept these careful sketches, observations and appeals to painters.
M. B.: But these are already treatises on painting.
OU: He did not write treatises, Maria. What is now framed as treatises were his notebooks.
M. B.: Sorry, I thought differently.
OU: In the opinion of his contemporaries, he was not an intellectual, in their eyes he was a simpleton. And the intellectual and elite of that time was one who was well versed in scholasticism, in Latin theology, one who built all his speech on dogmatics, on quotations. And since Leonardo was always looking for something new in his work, he could not repeat this or that detail that was found in other painters. As a person, you must definitely find something of your own, new. The same thing happened in Leonardo's communication; even in his notebooks, he did not strive to correspond to the intellectual manner of his time. Although in ordinary conversation he was an excellent conversationalist with a rich, expressive speech.
M. B.: They say that he was also impenetrable, always in an even mood. He was never exposed to the emotional side of the human spirit.
OU: Yes, because he was immersed in himself.
M. B.: Is it true that he was very strong and could bend a horseshoe with one hand?
O. U.: This, of course, is one of those legends attributed to him. But both arms were perfectly developed.
M. B.: By the way, he is the first registered person in the world who could write with both hands in exactly the same way.
Photo: © REUTERS / Denis Balibouse
O. U.: Let us recall what verdict was passed by Leonardo by the cardinal of Pope Leo X, who visited him already in France. He described the paintings that were kept by Leonardo, among them were "La Gioconda", "Woman", painted by order of Julian de Medici, "John the Baptist in his youth", "Saint Anna". Everyone looked great, but then he notices: he had a stroke, his right arm was paralyzed, so he can't do anything else. But he continued to work because he had the same control with both hands. He wrote with his left hand, from right to left, but not because he was encrypting something, as they say, but because it was an inner look - a reverse perspective. The way he addressed himself to "you" was reflected in the letter.
M. B.: This is such an interesting philosophical thought. It is very curious, there is something to think about. His images have come down to us, but already in adulthood. Can you judge from them that he was beautiful in appearance?
OU: We should not interpolate our own idea of beauty, how beautiful such a god-like gray-haired old man can be.
M. B.: I'm not talking about an old man, but about an aged man, about that portrait where he is in a suit.
O. U.: We should talk more about inner, psychological beauty, although the fact that he was attractive outwardly is the point of view of all his contemporaries.
M. B.: I cannot but touch upon Leonardo's personal life, about which so little is known. It is known about the scandal during his life in Italy, when a criminal case was brought against him, in modern terms. The point was that he entered into a vicious relationship with his students. It also adds that his beloved student Gian Giacomo, who was with him for 25 years, was his model. Many scientists see this as a homosexual orientation of a super-erotic nature. Also here under the question mark is a sketch of "St. John", on which the name of Salai is written and the male genital organ is depicted in an excited state. True, the question is whether this belongs to Leonardo's brush. I am interested in your point of view regarding the fact that he is considered a homosexual, and in general about his personal life.
OU: It is known that he had a very difficult relationship with Isabella d'Este.
M. B.: And what happened to d'Este? This is the "prima donna of the Renaissance", the patroness of many arts in that era.
OU: At that time, virtually all titans, for example, Michelangelo, who competed with da Vinci, also had ladies of the heart. It was customary for humanists to have a muse, which in part protects you because of its beauty and splendor, significance in the eyes of contemporaries. It was a tribute to the times. As for rumors, they reach us on an exaggerated scale after the works of Freud, other psychoanalytic considerations of the same drawing of a kite. As he wrote, the kite touched him with a wing when he was lying in the cradle, and psychoanalysts translated this into the language of sexual images. We need to see who writes about it. Freud, in his work, took a lot of the works of Dmitry Merezhkovsky, and Merezhkovsky transferred the complex relationship with his father to the image of Leonardo. It could give rise to the atmosphere of the studio.
M. B.: Yes, freedom …
O. U.: No, men's studio. Boys were admitted to Verrocchio's studio, they grew up there, gained experience. These were completely closed institutions, like ballet schools for girls. This is due to the fact that it was impossible to endure secrets.
M. B.: Will they talk?
OU: Yes, the students will blabber. All who were accepted as apprentices had to strictly keep the secret of the workshop. We know that Leonardo postulated this too. An avalanche of rumors could appear due to the constant male society, from the workshop to the academy. I would like to remind you that Leonardo was not a theologian, but he enriched the Italian spoken language beautifully. Researchers of the Italian language admire the aphoristicness of Leonardo's speech, this speech attracted people in the academy to him. Leonardo was very close to the famous Florentine humanist Marsilio Ficino, who from a pagan became a warrior of Christ. After Ficino's death, his disciples recognized that Leonardo could become the successor to their spiritual leader. So Leonardo has his own academy.
M. B.: And how old was he when he became an academician?
OU: 47 years old, quite a suitable age. But after 14 years, he made an even greater spiritual ascent, which few people know about - he became a novice.
M. B.: At 47 years old?
O. U.: No, after 14 years, in 1513.
M. B.: On the territory of which country?
OU: In Rome, before moving to France. There was the brotherhood of John the Baptist, created by the Florentines. It was no coincidence that I quoted Pope Cardinal Leo X, who mentioned that it was the work of John the Baptist in his youth, and the cleric accompanying the Pope said it was wonderful. His contemporaries did not have such a vicious view. He took up this work because John the Baptist was the patron saint of Florence, his hometown.
M. B.: That is, there was nothing seditious in the fact that the student posed for the image of such a revered saint?
Photo: © wikipedia.org
OU: There are many known cases when Leonardo drew certain images for his works, starting with The Last Supper, or wrote images of angels from his students. Another thing is that, of course, it was more difficult to work with models from the outside world. Working with the female model also required effort, for example, the well-known secret of the "La Gioconda".
M. B.: Let's talk about it. I remember the phrase that "La Gioconda" has lived for so long that she herself chooses who likes it and who doesn't. First, I ask you to mention that there are several "Mona Lisa". Which one is older, which one is ours, which one is otherworldly?
OU: It is not among the textbooks of Leonardo's work, because after all, a lot of efforts were made to prove that Leonardo belongs to the La Gioconda itself, since many twists and turns were associated with it. It now remains an iconic image, an iconic work of Leonardo. Moreover, it is this work that is now becoming the center of civilizational symbols.
M. B.: Why did it take a long time to prove the belonging of the brush? Because he did not sign his works, but put some kind of badge?
O. U.: At that time it was not customary to sign works, just like in our icon painting. For example, writing on an icon denotes a sacred act - its consecration. Accordingly, if you put your signature, you personalize it, you assign this image to yourself. It was created to order, like the same "La Gioconda". Therefore, there were a lot of problems with her. Then the excavation of the cemetery begins in order to establish the anatomical correspondence …
Photo: © REUTERS / Andrea Comas
M. B.: I quote: "Scientists-anthropologists and geneticists are going to restore and decipher Leonardo's DNA in order to learn more about the great artist and inventor." For some reason, it is not yet taken into account that during the religious wars the grave was plundered. They also say that they want to remove skin cells from some paintings, although there are no fingerprints in the paintings. Where and what will anthropologists get from?
OU: The same applies to the prototype of "La Gioconda" by Lisa Gherardini.
M. B.: This is a model.
Oh yeah. The wife of the merchant and the customer. Recently there were excavations trying to find her face in order to understand how Leonardo was able to recreate the portrait. This concludes the informational part.
M. B.: Did you dig it up or not?
O. U.: We dug it up. There was no skull. But no one understands why this is being done, why all generations are being restored from the same Lisa Gherardini to the present day.
M. B.: Why?
OU: The question is connected precisely with "La Gioconda", with ownership, with rights. It is still unclear why La Gioconda ended up in France. In 2006 there was the FIFA World Cup, then the Italians defeated the French national team in the final, but did they shout “Viva l'Italia!”?
M. B.: And what were they shouting?
O. U.: "Give back the Mona Lisa!"
M. B.: I don’t understand at all how she got there, if, before going to France, he left her to his students. Or is it not true?
OU: It is believed that this is so. Vasari confirms that Francis did indeed have it. On the other hand, it is assumed that the very Salai inherited it and passed it on to his sisters, and Francis bought it from them. There is such a hypothesis to explain why the painting is in France. But Italy does not agree with this, they believe that if you find heirs, everything will fall into place.
M. B.: In general, there are a lot of legends around this picture. I read that there were several hundred fainting spells in front of this picture. Esotericists like to remember that she sucked the strength of Leonardo himself and that he began to sharply decrepit after he finished it. The British artist cut off his nipples and put them up for sale, as inspired by this painting. Self-taught psychologists like to say that if even a reproduction of the Mona Lisa is kept at home, everything will be bad.
O. U.: A flurry of this negativity crumbles before Leonardo himself could not part with this picture until the end of his life and took it everywhere with him.
M. B.: Why?
OU: Leonardo was looking for an inner essence, the divine in both the male and the female image. He found this precisely in the image of the Mona Lisa.
M. B.: That is, a mixture of a man and a woman?
OU: No, this is the inner being that spoke to him in notebooks. That's why they wrote that "La Gioconda" is just like alive, her mouth is open and she is looking at you. An ordinary model does not look at the viewer, but she looks like Madonna Litta.
M. B.: Yes, she is watching, I saw it with my own eyes.
Photo: © REUTERS / Denis Balibouse
OU: This is his inner gaze. I will quote Leonardo: "I also happened to write something divine." It was bought by one admirer, who was captivated not by the inner, but by the outer beauty, but in the end “conscience won over voluptuous sighs”. He did not treat this picture in a utilitarian way, the buyer realized that there really is a divine plan. I will read the poems of Leonardo da Vinci:
Love is sublime when in union of two
She is in awe of the height of her soul.
Love is low when the spirit is insignificant
And the world of the one who is chosen by her is low.
Give peace and banish fear
Love clock. But you are marked if
Nature wisely holds the scales
Love and spirit in perfect balance.
For Leonardo, "Mona Lisa" was a spiritual interlocutor, it was not he who turned to her, but she to him.
M. B.: As for the second "Mona Lisa", we can say that it really is somewhat similar to the first, but da Vinci's authorship has not been proven. There is a legend that at first he painted the first picture, gave it to the customer, and then began to get so bored that he painted his own.
O. U.: In the sketches of Raphael in 1504 there is a sketch from this work, but it is wider, there are two columns at the edges. But in 2004 there were specialists at the Louvre who examined this painting and came to the conclusion that the painting was not cropped. Such research really brings us unique discoveries.
Pascal Cott, using a camera, took a photograph of a 240 megapixel painting using his patented method and came up with the original image, which was most likely the basis.
M. B.: And what was there?
OU: Religious female image.
M. B.: Was the nimbus present?
O. U.: Not necessarily.
M. B.: And then what?
OU: Sacred image with gospel stories.
M. B.: That is, first he drew something religious, and then rewrote it?
OU: He made the image more and more unusual. At first, after all, she did not look at the viewer, like all models. By the way, no one thought how old she was in this picture.
M. B.: She is a mature woman.
OU: How much will you give her?
M. B.: 40 years on average.
O. U.: He started work in 1506, and she was born on June 15, 1479, that is, she is 27 years old in this picture.
M. B.: Unfortunately, the time of our program has expired. In the studio was Oleg Ulyanov, an archaeologist, historian, professor, specialist in ancient Russian and Byzantine art. Thanks you!
O. U.: Thank you for the invitation.
Daniil Kuznetsov