Interview from the journal of alternative medicine November / December 1997, Spain
We rarely have the opportunity to travel to a country as remote as Peru and deviate from the usual tourist route. Also, there is rarely a chance to interview a real Shaman, moreover, if he is also the rector of the University of San Martin. But in this case, our chances increase dramatically, because only people with great ability to synthesize data and a broad outlook on life can combine a university education and a purely Peruvian tradition of shamanism.
Such is the person Dr. Jorge Gonzalez is, and we interview him at his residence near the Peruvian jungle. There he graciously welcomed us, as well as many patients who come to him to recover from their ailments. After all, Jorge Gonzalez heals not only the body, but also the soul; years spent in the Amazon tribes gave him the key to 'open consciousness' with the help of the sacred Ayahuasca plant (Banisteriopsis caapi).
This climbing vine can, if we so desire, send us on a journey to the heights of our psyche and discover the treasures that our mysterious mind keeps, just as it entangles giant trees in the embrace of brotherly love (note that in nature, a vine never " strangles "the tree that supports him). This vine is the material embodiment of another vine-shaped chain - DNA, where the secret of creation is kept. Will you accompany us on our journey within ourselves?
Could you tell us how you became interested in quackery (curanderismo), and also give a precise definition of this term? Indeed, in the West, the attitude towards him is deteriorating and becoming more and more contemptuous. The term quackery is used with contempt even here in Peru and throughout Latin America. This is due to what is happening in Europe
As for me, quackery is in my blood, because my mother and father were shamans. My mother passed away at the age of 93 and I saw during one session with Ayahuasca when and how exactly she would die. She died in my arms, and I sang her icaro (shamanic song), so I knew about it from childhood.
I studied at the University of Trujillo and Lima, received my doctorate, and then left for the selva (Iquitos). I already deliberately rushed into the world of quackery. As soon as I arrived in the selva, I started looking for healers and found two, a man and a woman, they were my first teachers. After studying with them for a long time, I realized that in order to deepen my knowledge, I need to live among various tribes: Witotos who live on the banks of the Putumayo River, Boras (on the Napo River), Cocamas from the Amazon, Shipibos from the Ucuyali River, Aguarunas from Santa Maria de Nieva, Chancas and others.
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I lived in these tribes, because I have always been convinced that you need to learn and 'grasp knowledge', grab it with both hands, otherwise you will only remain on the surface and will not be able to dive and swim in the depths of knowledge. Only then can we talk about shamanic knowledge, knowledge and experience in medicine, or whatever you want to call it.
I threw overboard the prejudice that, as a professor at the University and having a doctorate, I simultaneously study medicinal plants and the behavior of sorcerers and witch doctors.
But you are only a shaman, not a member of the tribe. Does someone who has access to the knowledge of Shamanism hold any privileged position?
In tribes, shamans have a special status. Almost always they are leaders, patriarchs, but this does not mean that they are not surrounded by disciples. The shaman must prepare and train them so that they become his followers. This is extremely important, because otherwise the knowledge of the tribe, both medical and general, would be lost. It would be considered just a 'fairy tale'. But this is not a fairy tale, but a reality that I submit to the experts at any congress on traditional medicine.
I not only defend the theoretical side of this reality, but also give an opportunity in practice to feel its beneficial influence. Logically, scientists should be convinced of this and begin to think that this immense desire, which is sometimes inherent in them, to boast of their titles and scientific works, is just vanity.
They have to start experimenting. For this reason, I went to the tribes where the knowledge about the reserves of nature is alive and where people live harmoniously and efficiently, in a wonderful balance between nature and society. After all, the Indians do not think about nature in an abstract way, but based on a person, that is, a tree and a person, a fish and a person.
What is the difference between a sorcerer and a medicine man?
A witch doctor is a person who uses a plant, as well as animals, solar energy, the earth and all natural resources, including his own body, to help other people find peace and tranquility, relieve pain and feel care. We are talking about a person who controls the positive forces of body and spirit. On the contrary, a sorcerer is a person who uses negative power, negative energy and abuses it. Using it, he 'profits' from life, catching up with illness, pain, agony and death.
Ayahuasca
Thus, on the one hand, we have a very strong positive - a sorcerer, and on the other - a sorcerer (negative). The shaman could then be defined as a witch doctor. He must be a sorcerer in order to control the negative power of those people who 'send' sickness and illness to their patients, and also to take care and protect himself. Thus, the shaman is an ambiguous character, with a dual nature, he is positive and negative, he controls both of these forces. But there is one main characteristic of him: first of all, he is a witch doctor, and then a sorcerer.
Ayahuasca is the foundation of shamanic culture?
It is necessary to distinguish between the regions of Peru. Each natural region of the country has its own magical plant. On the coast, for example, it is the cactus opuntia cilindrica, known as 'Saint Peter'. It also has hallucinogenic properties.
Is it as powerful as Ayahuasca?
No, absolutely not. I would say that it is 10 times weaker than Ayahuasca if you make such a comparison. On the coast there is also the Inca culture, which is united with all cultures of the Andes region by the use of the magical plant coca. But unfortunately we all know that it was very poorly used and caused great harm to humanity.
Although we, Amazonian shamans, continue to use it as an effective energy drink and develop a tonic based on the juice of its leaves. In the jungle, we also have the magic plant Ayahuasca. Thus, each natural region of the country has its own sacred plant, although for us the queen of plants is Ayahuasca. However, it is also true that we have many princes and princesses of the flora and fauna of Peru. In this regard, it should be noted that we, shamans, are environmentalists in our essence.
Could you tell us more about the Ayahuasca plant? What is actually its origin and effect on the brain?
Ayahuasca is a climbing vine that contains the active ingredient harmina. It is surprisingly combined with the active substances of other plants and produces purification and sometimes awakens consciousness. After taking this cleansing agent, the patient begins to experience a state after 10-15 minutes, as a result of which a new life is born, controlled by the Teacher.
This can be expressed not in words, but in music. Because in reality it is about synchronizing and harmonizing the patient's vibration and our positive vibration and entering his inner world. This is the crux of the matter. We guide the patient so that he can internally remember his life. At the same time, amazing results are achieved, for example, I was able to remember even the prenatal period.
Many people, therefore, can remember the events that caused them mental trauma in childhood, everything that happened to them, very positive and negative, something that left an imprint on their entire life. Subconscious memories of these events emerge from the depths of memory, and they make us enjoy or suffer. They condition and sometimes completely determine our life. Drinking Ayahuasca definitely gives us the opportunity for tremendous mental enlightenment.
When we are in such a fluid state of consciousness, we can have a very vivid color memory of what were our 'knots of consciousness' at some point in our lives. Then they moved into the unconscious, took refuge there and became for us the cause of evil, joy or sadness. This allows people who have adopted Ayahuasca to evoke a very deep and sometimes disordered analysis of what their life was, what it should have been, what their life is now, and what it should be.
In this way, it is possible to design the future and teach the person what to do to achieve these goals. The world of shamanism is a world of wonderful, positive goals and strong reinforcement of our personal and social values. It gives us the sensitivity we need to perceive life. For example, I suffer a lot when a tree is cut down. We are very conservative and hypersensitive.
When you work with people, do you know exactly what state each patient is in with the help of Ayahuasca, or is it done automatically with the help of shamanic songs?
This is known with the same accuracy as if we measured the pulse on a person's wrist or throat. In fact, we know how to approach this patient and how to 'guide' him if he has had problems or if the treatment is with people who have suffered a lot. I can tell you about one such case, when we had a guerrilla war here in the city of Tarapoto.
At that time, our patients suffered greatly from the guerrilla war, and our healing ceremony reflected very deep pain due to the oppression and violence these people were subjected to. We did it so that patients would go deeper into this feeling and experience it even more forcefully. So we strengthened them in the face of another pain.
If you do not take Ayahuasca, can you see these conditions too?
It is necessary to accept it. I think that we shamans should always take Ayahuasca when we are treating, although we can go through with it without taking Ayahuasca. I became convinced that it is better to take it, because this plant increases sensitivity every time. This allows you to clearly see a person's condition in order to determine their ailment and prescribe treatment, whether it concerns their health, family problems or work.
And also spiritual problems?
Yes of course.
Can you see the spiritual blockage that prevents the soul from moving forward?
Yes, if we see that the patient is under a strong negative influence, we treat him not only from a physical point of view (with the help of vomiting), but also spiritually. So that he felt deep pain because of committing bad deeds, wanted to be forgiven and came to voluntary atonement for sins.
It is interesting
It turns out that this is vital. It is not about repentance to any person, but to our own conscience, which we cannot deceive. Maybe we will not tell any of the people about our actions, but we ourselves need to redeem ourselves, fall to our knees and deeply repent so as not to make the same mistakes.
Is it always possible to atone for sins, no matter how grievous they may be?
Yes it is. I gave Ayahuasca to a former guerrilla leader who now lives in San Martín. After the session, something terrible happened, on the one hand, and something majestic, on the other. Because he cried for four hours, remembering his life and the torments to which he had doomed other people. Then he repented and said to me: 'Do you know why I cried?'
“Yes, I saw a lot of blood on your hands,” I replied. “My sacrifices have forgiven me,” he said. “I feel peace within and around me.”
Can a person redeem years of violence with 4 hours of crying?
Nobody knows that. It is important that we can teach through the suggested 'guide' how to atone for sins and thus change our lives.
Through meditation, what diseases do shamans 'work' with? More specifically, do you think you can cope with cancer and other incurable diseases?
In this case, you need to be very careful. I am very worried and even angry when they say that la Una de Gato, which we shamans have been using for many years, can cure cancer or AIDS in the last stage. This is completely false and pitiless. You can't play like that with the gullibility of people, and even more so with their pain. We know that Una de Gato is an excellent anti-inflammatory agent for various organs and is very effective.
When it comes to treating early cancer, we have proven that there are tree resins that can cure it, such as cervical cancer. It disappears in 15 days, and patients do not take medications, but this is precisely the initial stage. Some traditional medicine practitioners have asked us to show the results of daily application of Sangre de Drago and Sabia de Copaiba to the affected areas.
What other types of cancer could be cured?
Those that are not in the final stages. But it should be noted that this is not only about restoring health, but also about giving people a decent life and a worthy death. How much better it is if a cancer patient knows about it, takes medication, learns to heal and leads the same life as others. It is necessary to change the psychological attitude towards the disease so that at the right time it is possible to come to a natural and worthy death.
Diseases in general, and especially incurable diseases, are usually the result of unresolved psychological and emotional problems, or are there perhaps genetic causes that cause them?
We believe that we are already born with a certain genetic makeup. Because of it, we are more inclined to pick up one or another virus or have a predisposition to alcoholism. Thus, we believe that people are born with a certain genetic makeup. But we also need to realize that we are brought up in a society that 'conquers' us through its culture, we behave in a certain way, it 'seduces' us with the peculiarities of social life in each of the various cultures.
Also, we shamans know that people live in society, and in this sense, insufficient definition of the 'role' also gives rise to many problems. Therefore, there are no homosexuals in the Amazon tribes, because the roles in society here are very well defined from childhood. This shapes a person from the point of view of psychology, regardless of any tendencies or inclinations. For example, alcoholism has almost destroyed the entire Witotos tribe from the Putumayo River, which lives on the border of Peru and Colombia.
What is the origin of this addiction?
To understand this, it is necessary to recall the beginning of the century, when economic prosperity was achieved through the exploitation of Jebe, Shiringa in the extraction of rubber. The Indians of these tribes were forced to work under the threat of being beaten with a whip. If they did not cope with the work and did not bring 50 kg of rubber, they were punished, their backs were broken with blows of a whip, salt and hot pepper were poured onto their wounds, and they were even killed.
There was a brutal extermination of the Indians, they rebelled against exploitation by the 'civilized' people, who not only turned them into slaves, but also taught them to drink alcohol. People who have these problems start to suffer from hereditary diseases. Sometimes they have children with physical and mental disabilities.
What other diseases can be quickly and effectively treated with plants from the Amazonian jungle?
We have not experienced any difficulty in treating any disease. I even said that when we go beyond the boundaries of strictly traditional medical knowledge, we start combining plants, mixing them and finding multifunctional medicines. Thus, we treat diseases of the stomach, liver, kidneys and lungs. In this sense, I would like to note that in the tribes people have no idea about AIDS, although they suffer from cancer and various tumors, as well as from diseases of the bronchi and lungs, digestive system and intestines, snake bites and injuries.
There are tribes where the bodies of the dead are mummified by removing all the insides. Then they are filled with plants, covered and sealed with clay. I have seen many mummies in excellent condition. In the world of shamans, there is knowledge not only to restore health or bring back the joy of life, but also to preserve tissues, nerves and bones.
Returning to the conversation about plants and your personal experience, what you told about the need to use medicinal plants in the process of treatment. Shamans explained this by the fact that the plant leaves its spirit. Is this really the case, or is this a way to explain the scientifically inexplicable?
In my personal case, I have some doubts, because I am a University teacher. I was the rector of the National University of San Martin, so my mind is a little 'in the way'. But in the end, spirit is just energy, and then the two explanations do not collide, but complement each other.
Is this a shamanic practice?
In fact, this is a shamanic practice that I am beginning to relate to Chinese acupuncture. We now always recommend that our patients bring ants to treat the disease. The venom of these ants stimulates the nerve centers that we want to activate. This is the practice of 'Amazonian acupuncture'.
You have treated Curaca Shipibo and the witch doctor Benito Arevalo this way. Is it really effective?
Of course. We make sure that the ant dies. He heals at the cost of his life. It bites, and part of it remains in the bite hole, and then the animal dies. It's like with bees. We also use wasps for treatment.
Where do you get knowledge from? Is it true that it is communicated by the plants themselves and taught to cure diseases?
This is true. It is a pity that one of my teachers has already died. Once he was admitted to the hospital to operate. And he ran home at night, took Ayahuasca and in 'insight' began to study his illness. It was revealed to him that he must use a plant from his garden that he never used. He told me that the plant spoke and told him how he should cook it in the exact amount throughout the entire healing process.
He lived 20 years with a tumor in the liver. Ayahuasca is a living plant and its spirit manifests itself in various ways and we can talk to it. It even tells us how old he is. For example, I know for sure that this Ayahuasca is one hundred years old. I got it in the Sisa Valley 4 years ago.
Does Ayahuasca's age matter?
The older she is, the better.
Is there any ritual to cut it off? Do I need to ask permission from the spirit of the plant? Where did the shamans get their knowledge of the peculiarities of Ayahuasca and other plants?
Yes this is true. The source of this knowledge is lost in the depths of time. And what should attract our attention is how shamanic teachers discovered the secret of making these drinks from thousands of plants that grow in the jungle. Speaking of the Ayahuasca cutting ritual, we first find medicinal plants, then we sing the Ayahuasca chants and smoke it with tobacco. Through our singing, we ask her permission to lower her, cut her, and turn her into medicine for the treatment of our brothers.
Such is, if you will, the 'conversation' or communication of the plant with us. This is the first time we hit the machete. Since this is a climbing plant on trees 40-50 meters high, if you do not ask the plant for permission to cut it, you can take only the cut part. Then you have to climb 40 or 50 meters to reach the top of the tree, and this is in the jungle. This work will take more than one day and several people, because the roots of the plant cling to countless trunks and branches of other trees.
It seems incredible, but if we ask a plant for permission to cut it, we beg it to let it turn itself into a medicine, it falls from the first blow, and we have to run back to the side, because it all falls off at once, like a huge boa constrictor. Then we cut it, put it in our backpacks and transport it, showing every respect. Even when we brew medicine, we need to energize the plant, sing and smoke it.
And to end our conversation, what do you think about the current situation in the world?
We see that society is opening towards a new consciousness in which our planet lives, and we think that new styles of behavior are beginning to emerge, designed to solve world problems not only here in Peru, but also in other parts of the world. People are beginning to realize the need to preserve nature through seminars and congresses. But what cannot but worry us is that more and more sawmills are opening in our jungle, Brazil, Colombia, Peru and Bolivia. This is nothing more than cutting down different types of trees.
This makes us very sad, especially when we see that among them there are endangered species, suitable not only as wood, but also with medicinal properties. It is becoming more and more difficult for us healers to obtain medicinal plants due to deforestation. And when we see that animals are also exterminated, the rivers dry up, we are very upset. When I arrived in this region 17 years ago, this Shilcayo River had crystal clear waters. I myself swam in it. And now this river is simply stinking, in its waters even ducks cannot swim.
Therefore, we are saddened when we see how rivers dry up, fish die, and also that we are forced to breathe this polluted air. For this reason, I moved to the suburbs. And to summarize and is connected with one question that you asked me during the interview. I often ask myself who is wilder? Someone who wears a tie, speaks many languages and lives within a technological society? Or those people who live in the tribe surprisingly correctly and in harmony with nature. (Think and you will find the answer).
