“War For Us - Fundamental Topic, And You Can't Do Anything About It "- Alternative View

“War For Us - Fundamental Topic, And You Can't Do Anything About It "- Alternative View
“War For Us - Fundamental Topic, And You Can't Do Anything About It "- Alternative View

Video: “War For Us - Fundamental Topic, And You Can't Do Anything About It "- Alternative View

Video: “War For Us - Fundamental Topic, And You Can't Do Anything About It
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The Russian historian considers the conflict over the demolition of the monument to Konev the result of a provocation on the Czech side and wonders why the Czechs were able to forgive the Germans for 1939-1945, and the Russians did not want to forgive 1968. He reasonably answers Prokhazkova's questions about the liberation of Czechoslovakia, about the Vlasovites, about the possibility of a compromise.

Russian schoolgirl Karolina Chernykh put on a children's military uniform, but she neglected shoes. With bare feet, she stood on wooden planks with nails driven into them. She is 11 years old. She managed to stand on the nails for an hour and 17 minutes. She dedicated her record to the veterans of the Great Patriotic War. According to the Russian academician and political technologist Oleg Solodukhin, sometimes the celebration of victory takes on absurd forms. But he considers the conflict over the demolition of the monument to Konev in Prague 6 the result of a provocation from the Czech side.

Deník N: How appropriate do you think the schoolgirl Karolina Chernykh chose the appropriate way to honor the memory of the great event?

Oleg Solodukhin: Any idea and any movement can be brought to the point of absurdity. This is typical of the postmodern era, when one world is leaving and the other has not yet arrived, when any rules, traditions or values lose their absolute character. Unfortunately, this is exactly what is happening with the celebration of Victory Day.

- On Friday, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation published new, previously classified documents on the liberation of Prague by Marshal Konev, because of the monument to whom relations between the Chechen Republic and Russia have deteriorated sharply. Don't you think that the commentary on the recently published archival material is not entirely correct. So, for example, it says that battles for Prague were fought all the ninth of May, but do we know that the Red Army occupied the city practically without fighting?

- It seems. Although, on the other hand, what is actually considered a battle? If the breakdown of the resistance of individual centers of unorganized groups is considered a battle, then such clashes did take place there. The documents prove it.

- Konev became the subject of a serious dispute between Moscow and Prague. Is there a culprit in this situation who, as they say, started everything?

- Those who organized the demolition of the monument to Marshal Konev were well aware of the reaction of the Russian side. Russia is very susceptible to everything connected with the Great Patriotic War, with the victory over Nazi Germany.

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- When you say “Russia”, you mean the Russian political leadership or Russian society?

- Both. Everyone. In this case, the country's leadership expresses the opinion and feelings of the overwhelming majority of the people. For us Russians, victory in the war is sacred. This narrative unites the entire Russian people.

- So you admit that Prague's Konev will stand on Julius Fucek Street in Moscow in front of the windows of the Czech embassy, as the Russian communists suggested?

“It seems unlikely to me. The only thing I know about is the interest shown by Kaliningrad. Sergei Shoigu offered to transport the monument to Russia, but did not name the exact place. But regardless of what happens to the monument, its dismantling from the Interbrigade Square in Prague was a mistake. Both because of the deterioration of Russian-Czech relations, and because of the role that Konev played in World War II, including during the liberation of Prague.

- But Marshal Konev entered the liberated Prague …

“We can argue about what liberation means. The liberation of Prague actually began with the Battle of Moscow in 1941. From the first real defeat of the ground forces of the Nazi forces in the Second World War. Yes, when the Soviet troops entered the city, the Wehrmacht was no longer there. But there remained parts of the SS Reich and Wallenstein divisions scattered throughout the city.

But if the troops of the Red Army did not go to Prague, do you think the Germans would capitulate in your capital? Not. They would have carried out a bloody Warsaw-style action. And the truly heroic Prague Uprising, which takes its place of honor in history, would turn into one of the most tragic events. It was the offensive of the Red Army that forced the Germans to leave Prague. And not only. The fact that the Red Army allowed the Germans to leave the city played a fundamental role, and this essentially saved Prague. Events could have developed quite differently. Therefore, the merit of Konev in the liberation of Prague is undeniable, even if there were no direct battles in this case. When the enemy in front of you retreats and you don't even have to face him, this is also liberation.

By the way, I would not mind if you also erected a monument to (marshals) Malinovsky and Eremenko.

But in general, this whole war of monuments is stupid and pathetic. It is one thing when the people want it (in 1991, the monument to Dzerzhinsky in Moscow was demolished, or in 1918 the Marian Column on Old Town Square). And a planned action of politicians is quite another matter. A monument is always a symbol of its time and a reminder of its time. And this is its value.

- Perhaps the Czech side expected more understanding and was ready for some kind of compromise if the Russian side, along with the recognition of Konev's merits, would recognize the dark pages of his biography. Even before dismantling, a plaque was hung on the monument with an explanatory text, which told about the participation of the marshal in the suppression of the Hungarian uprising in 1956 and in the preparation of the occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1968. Leaving the monument with a plaque, in your opinion, would be a more acceptable option than eliminating it ?

- The tablets that the leadership of Prague 6 placed under the monument to the marshal were not entirely truthful and accurate. In Hungary, people were subjected to violence, and this fully justifies the decision to send troops.

- But why did the Soviet Union intervene in events in another state?

- The Soviet army stopped the civil war. Another question is how far you are ready to go with accusations against Konev. After all, he was a marshal who simply carried out orders. Today we assess everything differently, but he was a soldier and had to obey.

Hungarian uprising

The Soviet Union (its armed forces, including tanks) suppressed the uprising against the Stalinist dictatorship and the Soviet occupation by force. The uprising lasted from October 23 to November 10, 1956. The communist government hid the death toll, but it is believed there were thousands.

Under the plan of Defense Minister Marshal Zhukov, approved by Soviet leader Khrushchev and Ambassador to Hungary Andropov, the operation was commanded by Marshal Ivan Stepanovich Konev, the former commander-in-chief of the Warsaw Pact armed forces.

The same thing that happened in 1956, in 1961, was happening in Berlin, when American and Soviet tanks were already lined up against each other and stood with their engines on. It was Konev who helped prevent a crisis worse than the Caribbean one. Moscow sent him there, because he was familiar with the American command, and they trusted each other.

When the headman Rzheporye Novotny rides and vilifies Konev with his last words, he does not understand that he is insulting the memory of the person who saved his life at least twice. This man gave him the opportunity to be born. Honestly, such shows as with Novotny's participation on the Barrandov TV channel are disgusting to me.

- And what about Konev's participation in the invasion of Czechoslovakia?

- In the spring of 1968 he arrived in Czechoslovakia on a propaganda mission, and there was no talk of any espionage operation. Such meetings were held both before and after and were the norm in relations between socialist countries. I consider the conflict inflated around Konev a provocation.

A number of disagreements have existed between our countries for a long time, but they have never, in fact, never argued about 1945. Yes, historians have clarified the details. There are different points of view on individual events, but there was no serious conflict between Prague and Moscow because of 1945. Still.

Moscow did not react sharply for a long time. Even the signs did not provoke an overly violent reaction. Therefore, your politicians went further and decided to demolish the monument. Again, there was no harsh response from our side. Finally, during the quarantine, the monument was removed. And they're making up a story with ricin … and now with saxitoxin.

- Are they making it up? Do you know more about this?

- I just don't believe in it. Immediately after this news, there was a statement by four experts in the field of Czech foreign policy, led by General Pavel and former ambassador to Russia and the United States Kolář (father of the mayor of Prague 6 Ondřej Kolář - ed.), Followed by a statement from your parliament. The conflict is escalating. The desire to keep people's attention on this topic is obvious. I have worked as a political technologist for a long time and I suppose that the situation is developing according to a certain scenario. True, my Czech friends convince me that this is not the case, that “it’s not done that way” with you, that I have a professional deformation. Nevertheless, I still hold this point of view.

- Do you want to say that there is some kind of "Operation Konev" and that someone coordinates it from afar?

- I think yes. It's a guided process …

- And what is the purpose?

- Firstly, behind everything that happens, you always need to look for money. And here at stake is the nuclear industry, the interests of other countries, the banking sector and other industries. This is a strategic investment in the Czech economy. These are just my assumptions. Moreover, I do not condemn this struggle of interests. The use of information weapons is a common part of any politics.

“But the standard policy is not to send an agent with ricin to another country.

- There is no final denouement to this story. I can only make my guess: there is no person with ricin or saxitoxin. Rather, I will believe that a flying saucer with aliens has landed.

“However, there were people with Novichok poison, as well as people with radioactive polonium who came to kill in Britain. Why can't there be a man with ricin who came to kill in Prague?

- Firstly, I consider the story of Skripal a successful invention, which was produced by the same people who are now "working" on the events in Prague.

Second, the Communist Party condemned the tactics of individual terror even before the revolution. I have never served in the special services and do not specialize in them, but with a certain degree of awareness I can say that Russian intelligence has never made attempts on foreigners.

In addition, since 1923, Soviet and Russian intelligence have not carried out such actions under diplomatic cover.

By the way, in Russia we have a rule that state bodies do not deal with anonymous threats. I thought it was the same in the Czech Republic. But the Czech media write that the source of this information was an anonymous person.

- So, it is allowed to kill “ours”, but “strangers” is too dangerous …

- Not this way. They can "get" to criminals. Criminals. Those who broke the law.

- You say that the Great Patriotic War is "sacred" for Russians. But isn't it time to take off the rose-colored glasses through which you look at your own history? It contains more than just heroic pages. There were not only brave and honest soldiers. There were rapes and plundered villages … Perhaps, if Russia looked more objectively at its own history, we would also show more understanding. The unconditional glorification of their own history is alien to the Czechs and causes us doubts.

- Any country needs positive historical examples for its own existence. Therefore, the Czechs created an idealized image of the First Republic. The past should unite all residents of a particular region. War represents a common historical memory for us. In a positive way. For you, 1968 is something similar in importance to the Great Patriotic War. This is not a topic for discussion. This is still a living historical memory.

In the same way, war for us is not yet a historical value, but a living part of our memory. You must also admit that we have suffered incomparably more from the war than you. For us, war is still a living pain. And we consider any attacks on our most sensitive point a sacrilege and perceive it very painfully. For me, the demolition of the monument to Konev is like desecrating the monument to my own grandfather. And so for most Russians. These are pure emotions. War is a fundamental theme and you can't do anything about it.

- So, we simply will not agree, and nothing can be done about it.

- I do not know. It will take several more generations.

- You have lived in Czechoslovakia and the Czech Republic for many years. And still you do not understand that what you call liberation is considered by many to be the beginning of a new suppression?

- Why don't I understand? Understand. And not only this. I even understand why this is so. I would like to answer you in a broad context. That Europe was divided at Yalta is a historical myth. In Yalta, they discussed the future of Germany and Poland. Not a word was spoken about Czechoslovakia. It's just that you were already part of the Soviet sphere of influence. A document about this was signed in December 1943. Then Benes told Molotov that he would coordinate foreign policy with the USSR. Beneš had already survived the Munich injury and, of course, was looking for a strong and reliable ally. Including therefore, he gave the USSR Subcarpathian Rus. So Czechoslovakia chose what it chose. Moreover, long before the war ended. As a result, the communists won you without any Soviet intervention.

- Do you admit that the USSR is to blame for the outbreak of World War II?

- Despite all the openness to which I strive, I belong to the generation of Soviet people. I am a Soviet person who received a Soviet education. And there are things that I, apparently, will never retreat from, and, perhaps, I will not be able to go beyond some boundaries. Therefore, I insist that the USSR did not start the Second World War.

- It's strange. We belong to the same generation, and I was taught at school the same as you. But I don't think today that the USSR was just a victim. I see that the Soviet Union was involved in the outbreak of World War II.

- Probably, you have passed the evolutionary path that I have. Yes, I am more emotional than rational about some sensitive issues. But this does not prevent me from asserting that the Munich conspiracy began the Second World War.

You, too, have your own untouchable themes. I love this funny Czech narrative "for us without us". In Munich, too, everything was decided "about you without you." And in Yalta they decided "about you without you." In 1948 the USSR intervened in your internal affairs, and again you are not guilty of anything. And in 1968 everything was spoiled for you by the USSR and other socialist countries. But the Czechs themselves are never to blame for anything. Only Czech dissidents remember that those who tried and sent them to prisons were not Russians, but Czechs.

- You mean to say that our national traits do not include will to fight and determination?

- You are typical philistines in the best sense of the word. You do not assume responsibility for the fate of the state, preferring responsibility for the fate of your own family. The townspeople are adapting. Is always. In my opinion, this is a normal, even correct position: to live for the good of your family. The state, the party, ideals and ideas are all less significant. Actually, this is a normal society. More normal than one based on some very lofty ideals. Like Kampuchea Pol Pot.

- The theme of the Great Patriotic War for President Putin is one of the main ones. Does this mean that he, too, is to blame for the fact that a discussion about the dark pages of the Soviet victory has not yet begun in Russian society?

- Putin knows how to fantastically capture the mood of people. He not only shapes public opinion, but also expresses it. He is his face. Putin also expresses the general opinion of Russians, the opinion of the majority about many historical moments.

But this does not mean that we are not having a discussion. For example, there are different opinions among teachers. Historians and publicists are conducting heated discussions about different views on the Great Patriotic War. You know, there is always room for interpretation in history. This is confirmed, for example, by the Battle of Borodino.

- Do you also think that the media are mainly to blame for the misunderstanding between Moscow and Prague?

- The media are not to blame for anything. They only reflect the mood in society. I am not a fan of the Russian media, nor the Czech ones either. I remember one extremely harsh article published on the server of the Zvezda TV channel (the channel of the RF Ministry of Defense - author's note). It was written there that in 1968, not only nothing reprehensible happened, but, moreover, you should be grateful to us for it. Subsequently, your President Zeman expressed outrage at her, and the article was removed.

You know, I do not understand these revanchist attempts on our part in relation to 1968. I honestly don’t understand. I am a principled opponent of the introduction of troops, and I have been and remain a supporter of socialism with a human face.

But it must also be said that over the past year, revisionist articles have not been published in more or less official media.

- But published …

- The official position regarding the entry of troops into Czechoslovakia does not change, and it is not justified. Attempts to revise this position began in 2010, when the collection "Czechoslovak events through the eyes of the KGB and the Ministry of Internal Affairs" was published.

Please note that Russia does not want to recognize the participants in the operation as veterans of hostilities, since you have not unfolded any large-scale hostilities. However, Ukraine and Kazakhstan nevertheless adopted a law on veterans, which included the participants in the operation in Czechoslovakia. But I have never heard any claims from the Czech side against these countries.

- But you, of course, understand that there is something like a "post-Crimean escalation" that provoked a deterioration in relations between Russia and a number of states.

- Not really. The thought that this is a coordinated deterioration of relations does not leave me. Why, for no reason at all, in 2015, the Czech media raised the topic of allegedly numerous rapes of Czech women by Soviet soldiers? I remember the described case of rape, for which the commander himself shot his soldier. For me, this is more likely proof that the Soviet commander tried to maintain order in his units. It seems to me that you are somehow late in development. Other countries have already gone through this in the 90s.

- The problem is that you are looking for allies among the Czechs, to put it mildly, without a decent reputation …

- I agree. With such friends, Russia does not need enemies either.

- Do you see any way to normalize relations between our countries? And what role can the monument to Konev play in the conciliation process? Where would you put it?

- First of all, taking Konev to Russia does not mean looking for a compromise. This would lead to deep division and dissatisfaction on the Russian side. We must find a new place for him in the Czech Republic.

I see a way out in mutual empathy. In the Chechen Republic, more and more often Russians are presented as non-humans, denigrating their image. At the same time, 36 thousand Russians permanently live in the Czech Republic. In our social networks, the idea of the "collective responsibility" of Czechs for the actions of politicians who are by no means occupying the highest government posts is being expressed more and more often. I thought a lot why the Czechs were able to forgive the Germans for 1939-1945, and the Russians do not want to forgive 1968. Besides, 1968 is an open wound for you, and the German occupation is part of history.

We are different and we must understand this. None of us are the bearers of absolute truth. The opinion about some episodes will probably remain different with us forever. Remember the Battle of Borodino. Who won it? The French think they are, and we are convinced that the victory was on our side.

- Maybe the Olshansk burial place of the fallen Red Army soldiers will be a compromise?

- This is what the Konev family wants. But I don't like this idea. It's one thing - a monument in honor of the victory, and another - the burial of fallen soldiers. One does not fit with the other. I would not put it on the territory of the embassy either. If it is placed in a museum, Moscow will not like it either. You can find a place anywhere in Prague.

- Why can't Konev stand on the square named after Boris Nemtsov?

- He could stand on the Siberian square. This can be a compromise. Also, on our part, the mistakes that we made in relation to the monuments to the Czechoslovak legionnaires must be corrected. Moreover, despite the fact that our assessment of the legionnaires is completely different from yours.

However, our opinions differ not only on the legionnaires. I am surprised that the Russian press has not yet brought back to life the topic of Czech industry and its service to the Wehrmacht. Nowhere in your sources have I found complete data on how much and what during the protectorate you produced and sent to the Germans. I do not believe that with the German and Czech leanings towards order and documentation, this important stage has been ignored. And it is no coincidence that on April 25 the Americans bombed the Skoda plant.

- You want to answer me blow for blow and hint that we also hide a shameful part of our history?

- I do not know. But there is definitely nothing to be proud of.

- But it was not only the Czechs who were involved in collaboration.

- Yes, we must admit that on the territory of the USSR, which was occupied by the Germans, the degree of collaboration has remained unexplored. We know very little about our collaborators. Such things must be made public so that unnecessary speculation does not appear.

- As, for example, about the Vlasovites.

- First, the Vlasovites betrayed the USSR, then the Germans, then fought a little on the side of the Czechs against the Germans, but realizing that the Czechs would not help them, spat on you and left Prague to get to the Americans.

- That is, in your opinion, they don't deserve a commemorative plaque in Rzheporye?

- I don't think this is the right step. Smacks of political self-promotion. As a political technologist, I understand this, but there are some limits that cannot be exceeded. I can still understand simple deserters. But the general? When a person becomes a professional soldier, he should know that his duty is to defend his homeland. Vlasov was the same scoundrel as your Moravets. Therefore, the Vlasovites deserve a cross over the grave, but not a monument. They deserve memory, but not fame.

Petra Prochazková

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