2020 marks 200 years since the discovery of Antarctica by Russian seafarers. If not for the pandemic, this year should have been a breakthrough in the creation of marine protected areas at the South Pole, but without face-to-face conferences, the process stalled. Why should countries create a nature reserve instead of extracting resources from the Southern Ocean, why everyone is waiting for Russia's decision that there is too much mercury in fish, modern slaves and piracy, as well as the dream of making a film about Kamchatka and the reason to deprive the child of plastic toys, the Novosti correspondent was told Natalye Paramonova ocean explorer Philippe Cousteau and his wife Ashlan Brock.
It is rather difficult to explain to people living in mainland Russia why the ocean is so important. How do you usually do it?
- Philippe Cousteau: Without the ocean, life on Earth is impossible. This is the system that controls life on the planet. Billions of people depend on the ocean because the ocean provides them with food and trillions of dollars for the global economy each year. Also, the ocean regulates the climate of the planet.
- Ashlan Brock: In addition, the ocean gives off oxygen. Many people think that the Amazon forests do it, but in fact the ocean. The ocean is home to microscopic plants that release 70% of the oxygen for our planet.
What would you highlight the most important environmental problems of mankind?
- Cousteau: Carbon Crisis (Release of CO2 into the atmosphere from human activities. - Ed.), Which caused climate change. It affects all people, the situation gets worse and dramatic changes await us.
Brock: When it comes to ocean issues, overfishing is a huge problem. 90% of the fish species that are traded on the world market are overfished or caught outside of the allocated quotas. We extract so much fish from the ocean that there is no way for these resources to recover. The paradox is that if fewer fish were caught, then they would retain the possibility of a larger catch in the future.
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- Cousteau: Another problem is the plastic pollution of the ocean. Scientists estimate that by 2050 there will be less fish in the ocean than plastic. We pollute the ocean and make it more dangerous for ourselves.
What do you think about the garbage in the ocean, how big are the garbage islands?
- Brock: We have five huge garbage islands in the middle of the ocean. They were formed due to the peculiarities of ocean currents. Plastic gets there from all over the world. The largest garbage island is located in the Pacific Ocean. It is larger in size than the state of Texas in the United States, in area equal to France.
- Cousteau: This is a huge problem for the ocean. You have to understand that this is not only plastic on the surface. The problem is that plastic breaks down into smaller particles and fish and other ocean dwellers begin to perceive it as food. We end up finding birds and fish whose stomachs are full of plastic. Of course, plastic cannot be a source of nutrients. This also concerns us, because we catch fish stuffed with plastic and eat it. Plastic is toxic and the toxins that enter fish through plastic are passed on to humans because we eat fish. In fact, we are eating poisoned fish.
Brock: I don't eat fish!
Because of the plastic?
- Brock: Because it's toxic. I decided I didn't want to eat this fish anymore.
- Cousteau: Fish contains many toxic components such as mercury. Mercury is mainly found in fish, thanks to coal-burning CHP plants around the world (Mercury is contained in coal and is released when it is burned. - Ed.). Large amounts of mercury are found in large fish such as tuna.
“It's good to talk about ditching plastic or using less plastic in life, but what do you do with boats and equipment when they fail or become outdated?
- Cousteau: The best way to recycle a boat is to not have a boat. We do not have our own boat, we rent them. They are trying to restore the ship my grandfather used to go and make it a museum. At home, we try to use as little plastic as possible. We compost waste, eat little meat, because we believe vegetables are better at preserving the environment.
- Brock: We live in Los Angeles, and this city is famous for its love of cars. We have one car per family, which we share among ourselves. We walk to places where possible.
If we go back to sea expeditions and nature conservation, do you believe that they can be CO2-neutral and not produce garbage?
- Cousteau: It is impossible to make them completely CO2-neutral, because we breathe on the expedition, which means we emit CO2. The same goes for garbage, we still produce some kind of garbage. There are technologies now that allow solar panels to be used on ships, which is really great because conventional engines pollute the environment. There are already technologies that can recycle our waste before we simply put it in the ocean. All this is there and can be used.
Why is Antarctica your area of interest, why do you talk so much about it?
- Cousteau: This year marks the bicentennial anniversary of the discovery of Antarctica. It was discovered by the Russian navigator Thaddeus Bellingshausen.
View from board of the research vessel of the Baltic Fleet * Admiral Vladimirsky * in the area of the Adelaide Islands and Alexander I Land.
- Brock: Recently, my dream came true and I visited Antarctica, spent a week in the ice as a scientist. That was three years ago, and I literally fell in love with this beautiful continent. This is the only continent that does not belong to anyone. We all share it with each other and are responsible for it. As Philip said earlier, the poles are extremely important to the entire planet. The South and North Poles are responsible for the temperature on the planet. Even if you live at the equator, the reason that it can get too hot there and the place is no longer suitable for life, the reason for this is the circulation of warmer water from the poles to the equator.
The poles are also important for fish nutrition. Any fish in the world depends on the poles, on the nutrients that fill the water in Antarctica. If we keep a healthy ocean here, we can keep a healthy ocean everywhere.
This year, CCAMLR members (Commission for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources - Ed.) Have prepared three proposals for the establishment of marine protected areas near Antarctic shores. Now the situation looks like all states are ready to say yes to this reserve, but still there is not enough effort on the part of Russia to say the final yes to create this protected area. If the reserve is created, it will be the largest natural area in the history of mankind.
- Cousteau: Four million square kilometers of water area where fishing will be strictly regulated, drilling and mining is prohibited. This area will become a place where animals can survive before humans destroy them. We are fighting to ensure that it is Russia in the year of the bicentennial of the discovery of Antarctica to support this initiative. For the global community, it will be a sign that even in these challenging times of a pandemic, humanity can unite to conserve resources for the future. All CCAMLR member countries supported the idea of creating natural parks until only China and Russia came forward. I hope that in October, when there is a meeting of the countries participating in the Convention, Russia will support the creation of marine protected areas.
And if we stop fishing in such a large area, then humanity will not have enough fish. For many, this is precisely the argument not to join. Is there a real threat here?
- Brock: The irony is that if we continue to fish as we did, we will be left without fish. When we defend an area, we conserve fish stocks and can even increase production. Fish know no boundaries, you can fish everywhere.
Cousteau: It's not about how to stop people from fishing, but about how to let them catch more fish. We want fishermen to be successful, we have no goal of leaving them and their families without food. It doesn't matter if people live by the sea or on the continent, we have hospitals to keep the entire population healthy. The Marine Natural Park performs similar functions: it preserves the life and health of the inhabitants of the ocean, and after that, of humans.
What can we do about it? Maybe we should stop eating fish?
- Brock: Fish is a source of protein for a large population. We must not stop eating, we must fish more intelligently: do it at the right time and keep the fish's ability to reproduce. You need to understand at what age to catch fish. Often she is caught even before puberty, which means before she left offspring. Some fish species can live up to 70 years. If we catch fish too early, we break the chain of reproduction.
To what extent do you think aquaculture can help keep fish in the ocean and on the human menu?
- Cousteau: Avaculture can be a great opportunity to feed people and preserve fish. As with agriculture, strict rules are needed here. Without this, aquaculture can also become a source of water pollution and fish extinction, disrupt local aquaculture systems and exterminate native fish species.
Modern technologies allow all this to be avoided, they can provide a closed cycle of water use and purification, but they are more expensive. Aquaculture can become a technological branch of the economy, provide new jobs, but only if technology is applied correctly.
Tell me, what species of animals living in Antarctica can we lose in the next 10-20 years?
- Brock: This year was one of the hottest in Antarctica, it was +20 Celsius. This kind of weather is good for California, but not for the South Pole. As for the animals, we have a small child - a girl - and during her lifetime penguins from Antarctica will disappear.
Chinstrap penguins on King George Island (Waterloo) in Antarctica.
- Cousteau: Maybe some species will remain in Argentina, but those that live in Antarctica will disappear.
Can you dream up and save polar bears, which are also losing their habitats, by moving them from the Arctic to Antarctica?
- Cousteau: It's impossible. You can't just move the bears, they have their own ecosystem in which they live. It is important to remember that no species lives in isolation. All living organisms live in food webs, as we call them. If we move polar bears to Antarctica, then the animals that live there will not understand who they are. Polar bears will destroy the ecosystem in Antarctica. Unfortunately, moving is not an option. I want to draw your attention to the impact of warming in the Arctic. It warms up here twice as fast as on the rest of the planet. This is also associated with large-scale forest fires in the Arctic Circle, including in Russia.
Let's get back to the problem of overfishing. Recently, a study was released that proves that a huge number of vessels in the world are engaged in illegal fishing. With such a worldwide scale of poaching, is it possible to cope with it?
- Brock: I would say that there are many vessels in the world that fish illegally, and this is a problem for the whole world. To be honest, in all countries there are "bad" fishermen, but in many cases it is impossible to determine which state owns a particular pirate ship. Such ships are called "ghost ships". They have slaves on board, both men and women. Ship slavery is another very big problem, because in the open ocean, that is, seas outside of anyone's jurisdiction, it is difficult to track ships. New technologies - satellite tracking and drones - make it possible to track such ships and rescue slaves. The problem of illegal fishing concerns not only overfishing, but also human rights.
- Cousteau: Poachers can fish in one place, and next year there is nothing to fish there. The coronavirus came from the wildlife market in China, but this is only a warning. If we continue to cut down forests, interfere with nature and increase our influence on it, then we will surely face another virus that quite naturally lives in the wild. According to scientists, the coronavirus has cost the global economy ten trillion dollars. This is a good warning. If we continue to destroy nature, we will get suffering and loss. It is necessary to invest in educating people and caring for their health, not in earning several million more dollars from deforestation and killing animals. The coronavirus is a reminder: if we destroy nature, we destroy ourselves.
- Brock: I want to add about modern pirates and illegal fish catchers. The history of the Somali pirates is well known and they are still very active. It all started with illegal fishing. In places where local Somali fishermen were fishing, ships of poachers entered and caught all the fish. Every year, local fishermen tried to oppose illegal fishermen. In the end, it turned out to be easier to become pirates than to defeat illegal fishing.
Can you name the number of vessels that are engaged in illegal fishing?
- Cousteau: There are thousands of such ships, but the problem is that we do not know exactly how many. It is quite difficult to find someone in the ocean and track, some vessels are small, some are large, but it is not possible to say how many there are (Depending on the water area, from 15 to 45% of fish catch in the World Ocean is illegal. - Editor's note)
How did the pandemic affect the state of the ocean?
- Cousteau: We can say that the ocean got a little respite. There are fewer ships and less traffic. But the problems that the ocean has - climate change and overfishing - are long-term and cannot be solved in a couple of months, when people have reduced their activity in the ocean. This is good, but it really doesn't really matter. Long-term solutions are important, the creation of a network of marine protected areas, as in the case of Antarctica. Now is the time to think about how we can protect the environment. The economy has fallen, but this is no reason not to think about the future and not to preserve nature. She will save us in the future.
- Brock: Over the past 40 years, the planet has lost 50% of its biodiversity. The only way to avoid further losses is to create protected natural areas at sea and on land. I think that in 2020, countries should focus on making a decision on Antarctica. Now 6% of sea areas are protected. If a new reserve is created, it will be possible to protect 10% (of the World Ocean).
Do you have any plans related to Russia?
- Brock: Our dream is to visit Kamchatka. There is amazing nature, bears, fish, mountains, just amazing! Philip and I dream of going there and making a film.
- Cousteau: We don't have a script for the film yet, but we are working on this idea. Due to the coronavirus, our plans are postponed for a year or two, but in the next few years we will definitely make a film about Kamchatka.
View of the Koryaksky volcano in the Kamchatka Territory.
Another debatable issue for Russia. In our country, there are more than 30 dolphinariums and oceanariums, where they give performances with marine mammals: dolphins, killer whales and beluga whales. Do you think this type of entertainment has a right to exist? Many apologists for dolphinariums believe that in this way children can learn about the world around them, otherwise they will not see the animal world of the oceans?
- Cousteau: I think this is not necessary. For example, we have elephants that have been shown in zoos for hundreds of years. And despite this, they are dying out. The same goes for whales. We don't need to put an animal in a box to save it. Take animals like beluga whale or killer whale. They live in families and have complex family structures and communication. Moms, dads, grandmothers, aunts and uncles, cousins - they live together and interact. When you take an animal from a family, you are stealing children. Then you place them in a barrel that is only two to three times their body size. And this is for animals that swim hundreds of kilometers. Another - they need to communicate, and instead they sit alone. You ruin their lives just so a few people can make money,and for the audience - to get a few minutes of pleasure for little money. There is no environmental component in this. It is wrong to destroy nature for the sake of enrichment.
Is there another belief that dolphins can be used to treat diseases in humans and children? What do you think of it?
- Cousteau: There is a successful practice of using horses for this purpose. You should not use wild dolphins for this purpose, you can get by with horses. We must not turn dolphins into slaves.
What is your personal recipe for saving the planet?
- Brock: People find it difficult to give up plastic, food packed in plastic, and other benefits of civilization. It is very difficult to change your lifestyle at once. I usually advise you to make the best choice. The next time you are looking for a cleaning product, find the best solution. For example, I use products that consist of white vinegar and water for cleaning. They perfectly clean everything in the house, but they are even cheaper and healthier. I also buy dry shampoo in pieces without plastic packaging. If you see a bunch of plastic things in your house and get depressed, just think about the next time you try to avoid that much plastic.
- Cousteau: We also think about food. You know that 40% of the world's products are thrown into the trash. In developed countries like Russia or the United States, most of the food is thrown away by end consumers who buy more food than they need. In other countries, most of the produce remains in the fields or is lost and damaged in transit. We can eat less meat. This does not mean limiting yourself to meat, but maybe one day a week without meat or one meal. It's not that hard. These simple steps will help reduce our carbon footprint.
- Brock: If you have a small garden near your home, then you can compost and grow vegetables and berries. For example, our daughter loves more than anything else the strawberries from our little front garden. We don't have a garden or backyard, just a front garden, but that's enough. These are symbolic things we do, but they are cool and save money.
If we are talking about children, then another difficult question. What do you do with children's toys, they are mostly plastic and not recyclable?
- Cousteau: We have toys that can be recycled, or friends give us toys. We also try not to get too many toys. Just like with this world idea that a person needs all these things. It drives me crazy to think that the whole room could be filled with plastic toys. You still need to change the settings. It is better to have one good thing for a long time than ten cheap ones. Our daughter has most of the toys made of wood, and they fit into one box that you can wrap your hands around.
- Brock: We also have a husky dog and two cats. We go for a walk with our daughter and the dog, we prefer to look at bugs rather than toys. This is the plan.
- Cousteau: The desire to buy everything that is possible does not seem good to me. Moreover, you cannot buy everything, there will be something that you do not have. We teach our daughter to evaluate things and choose the meaningful ones. She can see people who have more houses or more cars. It does not matter. We have an environmental fund that works with young people, and we see changes that the younger generation is giving up a lot of unnecessary things in favor of preserving nature and their health.
You said that you have an environmental fund that focuses on youth and adolescents? Can Russian children participate in your programs?
- Cousteau: Children from India, Brazil, China and many other countries participate in our programs, we will be glad to have participants from Russia. We are hosting an environmental summit with children from South Africa and Europe.
