Interview with philosopher and cultural expert Andrzej Shagai.
Rzeczpospolita: Do we work to live, or live to work?
Andrzej Szahaj: Depending on the cultural context and historical stage, people's approach to work has changed a lot. If you limit yourself to Western culture, you can see how this approach has transformed over time. Now we perceive work in a completely different way from the inhabitants of Ancient Athens or even our ancestors who lived several centuries ago. However, from about the moment capitalism was formed, labor in the Western world began to occupy the place it occupies today.
Were these changes associated with the Industrial Revolution?
- With a number of factors that have created the reality in which we live. First of all, the bourgeoisie entered the arena of history with its cult of labor. Also, there have been changes in the worldview sense. On the one hand, these were religious ideas that arose primarily in Protestant circles, as described in Max Weber in his book Protestant Ethics and the Spirit of Capitalism. On the other hand, the philosophy of the Enlightenment flourished. This is liberalism, secular philistine morality, which put labor at the center of human life.
Two ideas were common to the new concepts: approval of labor and censure of laziness and indolence. Thanks to this, a cult of labor began to form. It was, of course, very beneficial for the nascent capitalism, which would not have been able to develop without the intense intensive work of practically the entire society. The disciplining aspect of the work was also important. In short, the new doctrines filled hard work with ideological motivation, and the new socio-economic system used and strengthened this cult. All these factors contributed to the fact that around the middle of the 19th century a modern approach to work was born: it became an unusually important, even fundamental element of human life, both individually and socially. The aforementioned industrial revolution led to a situation in which life began to appear as one big factory,and society is a collective of workers.
What exactly does this all mean?
- Work has become the most important factor that shapes a person. First, it takes up the most time from us, and secondly, most importantly, it sets the bar for our values and fills life with meaning. The process of subordinating existence to work developed gradually; we have seen its apogee in recent decades. Western civilization is obsessed with work.
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He gradually overshadowed all other human activity, approaches to understanding the world and himself. It became the center of human life and the foundation of the functioning of the system, which, due to its obsession with efficiency, has led to a situation where for many people nothing other than work has and cannot have value. They have to work harder and harder.
Not only capitalism put labor at the forefront. Communism, perhaps, was even more obsessed with the working people, social advancement through labor, norms, production plans
- Of course. Obsession with work is not a distinctive feature of a specific system, but of an era that took shape in the 19th century as a whole. Labor took its place thanks to factors that emerged earlier than these systems of government. The problem is that at a certain moment, already in the 20th century, they began to force us to work more and more intensively, we forgot about motivation, about why we were working at all. We rejected reflections of a philosophical, ideological, religious nature, which answered the question of what the work serves. We work more and more, but less and less understand why.
So, we still live for work …
- Yes, but this is a relatively new phenomenon, which is characteristic mainly of the Western world, and even then not everything. In many cultures, people still work just as long as it takes to feed themselves, and the rest of the time they devote to … life. In the individual aspect, work has become the basis of self-esteem, a sense of human dignity, all processes of self-realization, moreover, it often determines the meaning of our existence. In turn, in the social plane, it is an important element that forms social ties. Through work, different groups emerge, a sense of solidarity arises between people, societies are formed. It should be noted that the social aspect of labor was present in our culture already earlier, long before our time. Labor served as the basis for the formation of communities already in the Middle Ages,in the 19th century, these processes only intensified. On this basis, a strong class, professional identity was born.
Let's focus on the self-awareness of a particular person. Where does what sociologists call the axiological aspect of labor come from? Does this mean that, depending on what kind of work a person does, he looks at moral issues in different ways, values freedom or security in different ways? Does work really determine our values?
- Labor does not determine our perception of the world 100%, however, it has undoubtedly become an incredibly important element in the formation of self-awareness, perception of oneself. The moral aspect looks like this: a job well done fills a person with self-respect, and this is very important. The problem is that this moral aspect has been weakening in recent years. Now we work almost exclusively for the sake of money: this is the only goal of our efforts.
In this context, they began to talk about the extreme commodification of labor. Deprived of all essential moral aspects, he became just a commodity in the market. This process can be called the moral decay of labor. The theme of human dignity has disappeared. A person less and less wants to do his job well, because there is too little material incentive for him. There is an alienation of labor: we feel that our work is something alien, it is hard for us to endure it, especially since the labor process is often associated with humiliation, low wages, stress.
One popular Internet meme says: it's not that we don't like Mondays, we just don't like our job
- Psychologically, the process of alienation manifests itself precisely in disgust, even hatred, towards work. It seems that this phenomenon is increasing, becoming more widespread, although there is no historical data on this topic. We know, however, that now about two-thirds of Poles do not like their work, which means that they are alienated from what they do. This is not surprising, since work literally gives nothing but material incentives, and sometimes even deprives of something: self-dignity, a sense of justice, respect for oneself. In a commodified reality, we ourselves become a commodity that is exploited until it becomes unusable, and then thrown away.
We begin to perceive ourselves as a product in the market, giving up our own identity and managing ourselves as an enterprise. We forget that a person is more than an employee and a consumer. At the same time, the system requires the person to give all the best. These are no longer the times when only a part of oneself could be sold on the labor market; a new type of capitalism wants an employee to devote all his thoughts, emotions, and time to work. The line between work and play is blurring, since the system sees in people only workers, and not multifaceted creatures.
Let's make it clear: you say that before a person gave only a part of himself to the work that served his formation, and now, although labor does not give him anything but money, he is forced to surrender to it entirely?
- Of course, there are different professions, companies and corporations, so not everyone is engaged in a business that satisfies only material needs. But if you look at the situation as a whole, we can say that the negative processes we are talking about are deepening. At the same time, work, which seems increasingly alien to us, is becoming more and more tedious. The demands placed on employees are becoming almost impossible to fulfill. A person is required to put all of himself into work 24 hours a day, because often intellectual work (a typical occupation for the modern system, which is often called "cognitive capitalism") requires the connection of all emotions, and at the same time constantly exerts mental pressure. Therefore, we have witnessed a global epidemic of professional burnout, depression, addiction to psychotropic substances. Many of us cannot handle this pressure. It should also be mentioned that physical labor, which is poorly paid and despised in society, is still exhausting.
“However, flexible employment models are emerging. There are opinions that in the future we will deliver people with Uber in the morning, bake pizza in a restaurant in the afternoon, and answer calls at the call center in the evening
- The question is how much flexibility we can handle. A person cannot be flexible all his life. At some times, we are probably ready to come to terms with the lack of stability, uncertainty about the future and constant changes, but if this stage is delayed, it destroys the psyche. Man needs security. The cult of flexibility, which is characteristic of cognitive capitalism, has already reached the limits of human endurance, in a sense, has sunk to the point of absurdity. This has all gone too far. I am afraid that we will have to pay more and more (socially and psychologically) for this approach to work. In the long run, this is not beneficial to anyone.
Therefore, we can put forward the thesis that modern labor has become an unhealthy phenomenon and even more: this degenerated labor itself has turned into a disease that begins to torment humanity. It will take a lot of effort on the part of intellectuals, politicians and representatives of the business world to block these destructive processes and decide what to do next.
In a sense, we can be reassured by robotization and automation, that is, the ability to transfer to machines and computers most of the hard and tedious work that people do
- This is a rather difficult problem. The social sciences are considering several possible scenarios for the future development of the world of work. Of course, prophecies appear that soon there will be no work: robots will be able to do everything for us. Many experts remind that these fears are nothing new. For a century and a half we have been afraid that technical and technological progress will deprive us of our jobs, but the consequences of new inventions have always been the same: some professions disappeared, some appeared. I note that in the past few decades, progress has led, rather, to an increase in the volume of labor, rather than to its reduction. This is the paradox.
So, there is more and more work?
- Other scientists argue that qualitative changes have taken place in technological development, and this time the vast majority of the population will actually be deprived of the opportunity to work. The question arises of how to prepare for this entirely new historical challenge. If such a turning point does occur, it will most of all affect the developed countries, that is, the West. Now it is difficult to imagine what psychological and social consequences it will bring.
Several scenarios are looming here again. Karl Marx said that work is inherently a curse, so when the world reaches a level of development at which people do not have to work, they can finally develop their best qualities. They will not be lazy or bored, but will develop spiritually, working for themselves: improve talents, abilities, and so on.
Empty dreams …
- Yes, many initially understood that this was a utopia. Other scenarios are more pessimistic. Many of them assume that moral decline awaits humanity if people are deprived of the opportunity to work. It will enter an era that will be determined by the absence of meaning, emptiness, boredom, contributing to the growth of aggression. Some scientists say that having lost work, a person will begin to fill the time with simple entertainment, some kind of escape from reality, for example, into the virtual world. Perhaps people will not want to leave virtual reality at all, because there will be no incentive to do so.
A very difficult situation can arise, because someone will probably continue to work, servicing all these automated processes. These people will receive a special social status, and a new class system will emerge.
“There will be lucky workers and a lower caste out of work
- Yes, the working elites and the masses who need something to occupy their free time, because, most likely, they will not be the heroes of Marx's utopia, who will begin to engage in art or arrange scientific debates. Elites will have to organize their lives, so the state will have a new function. Perhaps the situation will resemble Ancient Rome, where people tried to provide entertainment so that they did not start a riot. It is difficult to imagine how it will look in our time, and where humanity will lead. But, I dare to suggest that, most likely, conditions will not be conducive to the flowering of the best human qualities. So it is worth not indulging in dreams of a life without labor, but thinking about how to divide labor into everyone, improve it and make it again a phenomenon that has a deep intangible meaning.
Michał Płociński