Uma Thurman's father is a professor at Columbia University, a Buddhist, a close friend of the Dalai Lama and one of the main thinkers of the planet. His specialization is the expansion of consciousness. Svetlana Kolchik interviewed Robert Thurman about happiness and the meaning of life.
"Orgasm is a rehearsal for death," - smiling from ear to ear, says into the microphone a man who named the daughter of Uma, which translates as "a sense of proportion," The Great Middle Way "between eternity and nihilism." And she became a model and actress.
“Orgasm is the moment when you let go of your“I”, separate from the body and dissolve in absolute bliss. At first it can get scary, because this is light, pure energy. But at this very moment you are a Buddha. In the auditorium of Columbia University, where a close friend of the Dalai Lama and one of the main thinkers of the planet, Professor Robert Thurman is teaching a course on Tibetan Buddhism, silence. Only the measured taps on the keyboards are heard as students take notes on the golden words on their Macbooks.
Nine years ago, I also lived in New York and studied at Columbia University - and I lost a lot not having met this man even then. His lecture is a one-actor theater. The professor, waving his arms, talks about quantum physics and the theory of relativity, quotes Castaneda and Woody Allen, reads excerpts from Buddhist parables, draws strange formulas and diagrams on the blackboard, explaining what happens to the chakras at the moment of orgasm and death. His reasoning is pure psychedelic: “We are used to living in a world where we either are or we are not. But both are possible. Bob (sometimes his students call him that) has the kindest blue eyes, huge hands and some awkward, but terribly charming habits. Uma Thurman is very similar to him.
If you are not interested in just blindly believing, but you want to understand something, then you are already a Buddhist
Professor, why is Buddhism in vogue now?
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- No wonder. Buddhism is psychology, ethics, and science that answers all questions about life and death. Buddha, for example, once predicted the infinite divisibility of the atom. Have you heard of this? Buddha was generally the greatest scientist. In general, if you are not interested in just blindly believing, but you want to understand at least something, then you are already a Buddhist. Some people consider Buddhism to be a religion, but it is not really a religion. This is yoga. Yoga for the mind, yoga for the emotions.
So you can be Orthodox and Buddhist at the same time?
- Sure! Although your patriarch will most likely be indignant. The Dalai Lama, however, says that it is better not to change religion - these are your roots, connection with your family, with ancestors. But that doesn't stop you from learning from Buddhism, such as the art of meditation. In general, it is high time to stop converting other people to your religion. Better take care of yourself - develop your mind, learn to control your emotions. It doesn't matter what denomination you belong to.
What does it mean to you personally to be a Buddhist?
- Be aware. For example, you have been offended or you do not agree with something, and anger is already boiling in your soul: "So unfair!" Pause, grab your reaction by the tail, ask yourself, “Why would I yell at this person? How else can you react? " In this pause, you will already swallow freedom, you will be a little Buddha. Without freedom, your mind is like a radio with only one station tuned in, and you have no idea that completely different music might sound. But everyone has a remote control for themselves, don't forget about it!
Why, then, psychotherapists advise not to suppress emotions, to express oneself?
Robert Thurman talks to Svetlana Kolchik Robert Thurman talks to Svetlana Kolchik
- It all depends on the situation. Sometimes it's wiser to hold back. For example, you come home and your man has once again done something that infuriates you. Your usual reaction is to yell at him. What will it change? Try to react differently - in a way that you have not done before. Surprise yourself and him. Shanti Deva, a Buddhist guru, advised you to be angry even before you got angry. For example, my wife, when I come home and start complaining about someone (and getting even more turned on), she usually says to me: “Honey, shut up. Do you want to ruin my mood too?"
She is your selfish. A man needs a woman to listen to him
- On the contrary, she does me good. Why drag stress into your home? I call this creative anger intervention. The habitual way of thinking is to speak out, to share. But is it really necessary for you to get upset a second, third time? Do you understand what I am talking about?
Is your wife also a Buddhist?
- I have no idea. I don't even know if I am a Buddhist myself. But I know that my wife tries to be happier by controlling her mind and emotions, by approaching life creatively. Maybe that's what it means to be a Buddhist. But if you call yourself a Buddhist and take a steam bath about the same problem, you may be a Buddhist, but very stupid. You, girls, mothers teach you to be tolerant, accepting, suggest that you should listen to your men indefinitely … 1
And you obediently do it all your life. Try asking yourself, "Does it benefit me and him?" Sometimes it is helpful to tell the peasant, as my wife does, "Honey, shut up, huh?" If you react to everything, you will never be happy, because people will never fully satisfy you, you will always dislike something. You choose how much energy to spend on worrying.
Columbia University Professor Robert Thurman
What is happiness for you?
- Happiness? Ha ha ha! I would have known! Probably happiness is … Being real. Real that is. I've been studying Buddhism for almost fifty years, but I haven't found nirvana yet. But I know how to comfort myself. Do you know such an English word - consolation (consolation. - Approx. MS)? Do you know? My girl, your vocabulary impresses me! In short, I know that there is happiness. And that it is right here. Because happiness is our nature, the essence of life. I don't feel happy right now, but that doesn't matter. I still know I'm happy. Got it? 2
Not really, to be honest
- Oh well. (Laughs.) Reality is happiness. Life is nirvana. She is already in us. And I know that sooner or later I will feel this happiness. Reality is stronger than fiction, truth is more powerful than illusion. Illusions still need to be created, but reality already exists. You are nirvana too. Each of your cells consists of nirvana, although you may not even guess about it. Hence all these questions about happiness: you are not sure if you will ever be completely happy. Although, probably, intuitively you are familiar with this feeling, right? In the spring in Russia, for example, you are happy, right? When does the warmth finally come, after your winter? But you've been unhappy, haven't you? Have men ever broken your heart?
“Happiness is in us and around us. The Universe is driven by the energy of Endless Love. She has always been, is and will be"
Well, yes, it happened
- Yeah, so you know about misfortune too. And what will happen then, you know? You probably think that when you die, you will become nothing? And closer to old age there will be sickness, suffering and other misfortunes, and you prefer not to think about it at all. Yes? But Buddha taught that reality is nirvana. You just have to enter it, as they say. It happened that you were told something and you slapped yourself on the head and said: “Exactly! I always knew that!”? When you realize with all your essence that the true nature of the Universe is infinite happiness, you understand that in fact you have always known this.
Happiness is in us and around us. The Universe is driven by the energy of Endless Love. She has always been, is and will be. And when in the future you and I gain nirvana and look at the past (and it will not go anywhere from us, the past always remains with us), we will understand that we have always been happy, even in the most difficult periods of life. By the way, you can easily learn to remember your past lives. Are you aware that early Christians believed in past lives and reincarnation? Then they were called heretics. Sorry, I must be difficult for you to explain? (Laughs.)
How can I tell you …
- A little faith, Svetlana, a little faith … Trust the Universe. This will help you. The problem is that modern people believe more in science than in the soul. While they are alive and well and death is far away, they perceive themselves as a body filled with a brain. And death is perceived as nothingness. You think that when you die, you will simply cease to exist. And you are terribly afraid of this.
And what will actually happen?
- Do you want to know exactly? Well, there is nothing scary about death, on the contrary. After all, the only thing we are afraid of is pain. There is no need to be afraid of her: she will not be there. What happens to you when you fall asleep deeply? You start dreaming. But you do not know that this is a dream, because at this moment it seems to you a reality. When we die, the only difference is that after this dream you wake up not in your body, but in a different state.
At first this state may seem uncomfortable, because it is like weightlessness: you are ethereal, like a ghost. You will see your old body, your old environment, but no one can see you. You want to speak, but they won't hear you. It's strange, isn't it? Therefore, you will almost immediately go in search of a new body. Have you seen the movie "Ghost" with Demi Moore, Whoopi Goldberg and Patrick Swayze?
Yes, of course, many times
- Oh, I'm glad! Are you aware that the person who wrote the script for this film studied the Tibetan Book of the Dead? Therefore, what is happening in this film is close to the truth. So, if you are lucky and in your next life you are destined to be human again, your spirit will almost immediately go in search of new parents.
Svetlana Kolchik spoke with Uma Thurman's father about the Tibetan "Book of the Dead"
Do we really choose them ourselves?
“It’s true, my girl. But if you are an ordinary person, that is, reactive, unaware of your mind, in your choice you are guided exclusively by passion. If you are to be reborn as a woman, you will fall in love from there, from another dimension, with the one who will become a father. And if you are born a man in your next life, you will want your future mother. This is not a completely free choice, because you will be driven by pure passion, unbridled attraction, lust. Tibetan lamas, for example, choose their parents deliberately …
By the way, have you read Freud? Remember his theory of the Oedipus complex and the Electra complex? So, Buddhists wrote about all this five thousand years ago. Remember: there are always three people involved in conception: your parents and you. The three of you merge in ecstasy and pure passion guides you. Ha ha ha! You do not trust me? Do you know how all this is known? Thousands of years ago, back in the time of the Buddha, great yogis with the help of deep meditations could remember in detail the moment of their conception. That is, all this is not just speculation, but witness testimony.
How long does it take from the moment of death to our new conception?
- 49 days. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less, but on average so. True, some souls can take a vacation and live for some time in other, heavenly planes. In those dimensions it will seem like ten minutes, but in earthly terms it will take about a couple of years. Time in different planes flows and feels differently.
Professor, are you really sure what you are talking about?
- (Sly smiles.) And what is there to doubt? These are all experiences detailed on thousands of pages.
Well, then it's really not that scary. If we really get back so quickly …
- Yes, but if we return in human incarnation. What about the tigress? If you, for example, get angry a lot in this life, in the next you may be attracted by the incarnation of some predator. With fangs, such sharp teeth, even horns, maybe big paws and a tail. You will hunt and kill innocent goats in your next life. Ha ha ha! Or you will be born a rhino. Or a hornet - and you will bite with poison. Man is one of the most tender, harmless incarnations. You must truly like being human for your spirit to choose this incarnation again. I’m looking at you and I think that suddenly in the next life you will be attracted by the embodiment as a beautiful goose, with such a long graceful neck?..
Who do you want to return to?
- Little man, little man. I like people.
Professor, what is karma?
- Karma is evolution. What Darwin discovered, Buddhists have known for thousands of years.
So Darwin was right after all?
- Sure! We have all been in due time and monkeys, and brontosaurs, and snakes. The difference is that Darwin did not talk about the soul, he believed that only genes, impersonal molecules, would reincarnate. Buddhists agree with this, but they also talk about spiritual genes, molecules, so to speak, of the soul. What is soul in Russian? Okay, du-sha. That is also dusha gene, the gene of the soul. That is, you, Svetlana, were and will always be. And I will. Genes are passed from one life form to another, and so it was and will be. That is why I insist that you need to be aware of this process as much as possible and improve, be as happy as possible yourself and help others to be happier. Learn to dwell in this powerful, incredibly attractive, intoxicating bliss of life. Since we're here forever, we can't get away from this life, so why not try to make it better?
True love is when you want the other to be happy because he is more important
Doesn't Buddhism say that one should strive to avoid samsara, the chain of rebirth, in order to achieve true liberation?
- Buddha really talked about a certain dimension where those who are afraid of the idea of living forever can hide. Something like a spa in heaven. But this is all an illusion. You will return from there anyway. Because happiness, bliss - it's all there.
Nirvana and samsara are one. The Western interpretation of Buddhism is not entirely correct. It is believed that the Buddha said that life is suffering and that the only way to get rid of suffering is to give up desires. But this is not the case. In fact, Buddha said that life is happiness. That is why Buddhism so quickly and easily became popular in Asia and beyond, unlike Christianity or Islam, it did not need the crusades. Buddha believed that every molecule of our body exudes happiness, and the energy of happiness also binds these molecules together.
Why then is there suffering?
- From ignorance. Suffering is an illusion. Buddha said that only the life of the unenlightened is full of suffering.
Are fatal diseases also an illusion?
- Sure! And death is an illusion. What is cancer, for example? It is healthy tissue that grows in the wrong place. This is an excess of life. And often the wrong diet is to blame: our food is full of preservatives and female hormones, consisting of trophoblastic parasitic cells. These cells multiply at a tremendous rate in the embryo, they help the fetus develop. So, most cancerous tumors are composed of these cells, growing where they should not. But our main illusion is something else. This is our overgrown ego.
For example, you, Svetlana, most likely think that we are different from each other and that you are more important than me and than anyone else. And I, in turn, believe that I am more important - simply because it is me. This does not mean that we are selfish, we just used to feel that way. Each person considers himself a little more important than everyone else. This is why we get so upset when something doesn't go the way we want it to. Do you have children?
Not yet
- When you have a child, for some time you will consider that this creature is more important than you. And, perhaps, if you fell in love a lot, your love object also seemed more important to you at first. If he also loved, then he probably put you above himself, until the first wave of passion subsided and you had mutual claims. This is what the Buddha spoke about: if you believe that you are not equal to the world, but a little higher, more important, you are doomed to suffer. The world will win and you will lose. You will start to grow old, get sick, lose loved ones.
Buddha said that you will be unhappy if you limit your reality to the illusion of your inflated ego. If we put ourselves on a par with the world, it opens the way to bliss. The world is pure energy of happiness, and as soon as we stop feeling ourselves separate from it, we connect to this energy. But one must learn to feel the connection with the world not only at the level of the mind, but also of all five senses, with every cell.
Robert Thurman is convinced that the world is pure energy of happiness
What is love?
- In our usual understanding - the desire to possess another. But this is the same inflated ego, that is, when we perceive the other as an extension of us. People stay together as long as they are able to satisfy each other's ego needs, and then they drift apart because they ultimately consider their needs more important. True love is when you want the other to be happy because they are more important. Even if this love is not mutual.
Do you know how to love like that?
- My wife and I have been married for 44 years, for both of us this is a second marriage. To be together for a long time, it is important to accept the fact that your lover has his own spiritual path, and you must support him on his personal path to nirvana and not interfere. And he should support you. This, of course, is an ideal, but we must strive for it. If you are quarreling, remember that the inside of each of you is happiness, nirvana. And the conflict, perhaps, will resolve by itself.
Do you believe in an official marriage?
- I do not see a great need for it. You can live a long, good life together without registering a relationship. The main thing is to be truly friends. And if you turn each other's life into hell, you need to scatter without hesitation.
A woman should be a challenge for a man
Can a Buddhist live with a non-Buddhist?
- Maybe, but it's better to share the spiritual values of each other. Although all religions in general call for the same thing: to think less about yourself, not to be discouraged. If you follow this, it will be easy to live with you.
Did you teach your children to be Buddhists?
- I never forbade them anything. We wanted our children to be free, to find their own way in life. If you know how to be happy, your children will also be happy. They all seem to believe in past and future lives, in the existence of the soul, in love, compassion. So they are essentially Buddhists.
Did you punish them?
- Never. What for? Our children are always better than us. The Federation of Bodhisattva Angels constantly cares about this.
You once said that having a daughter like Uma is a sign of very good karma
- Sure! But Uma was lucky with us. She has such cool brothers. The youngest is a yoga teacher. The other is a talented actor. The third is a philosopher. The fourth is just a good person. But we have it special, we adore it. Although Uma herself is a very modest girl, too much.
Why are there few Buddhist women's monasteries in the world?
- Unfortunately, there are very few monks left. And the Buddha considered women to be more enlightened beings, their connection with the Universe is stronger. Men are more captivated by illusions, they need to look for themselves, assert themselves - with the help of aggression and wars. Therefore, it is more useful for them to be monks.
Why is God always a man?
- Because for the last millennia we have been living in a militarized world ruled by men. It is not profitable for them to have a female guru. But now everything is changing. Recently, there are more and more women gurus in Buddhism. Women can do anything. The most unfree societies are those where women have no rights. By the way, I advise you to study aikido - it will help you become more confident in yourself. This is a very feminine form of wrestling - you become stronger and more flexible at the same time. By the way, I don't like weak women. A woman should be a challenge for a man.